[Nov 15, 2002] Jim Ruffin visits during a Friday Night Fellowship meeting and answers questions incognito, mostly related to male/female relationship...


Q: How do we deal with feelings of lust for another female, whether sister or not?
A: Jokingly: Cold shower method? "But flee youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But a foolish questionings and those arising from an untrained mind refuse, knowing that they beget contentions." - 2 Timothy 2:21-22

Q: When do we know when our time of singleness has come to a close, and time for relationship is ripe?

A: This is a question more of priority. What is your most important priority right now? Most important priority for most students is: Do well in school. Study well. Do the things that are necessary to advance degree, to pursue career. Anything that enters in counter to that is counterproductive. Until all these things are out of the way, and "marriage" is a question you can start asking. Most usually, focus is on romance, but that's not the right focus. Lots of trouble, with the focus on romance. Stats have shown that males between 28-30 and females 25-27 is the level of maturity needed to make marriage work. Be able to know first of all who you are and discern the other.

Q: How should a brother or sister act when you think you're falling in love?
A: "Normal"… If talking about reality, infatuation/puppy love isn't real. How clear do you know yourself? Some people are in love with the thought of being in love, esp. women But the fact is that if this is causing you to behave abnormally, that is, can't stop thinking about it, then more likely than not, you're obsessed to a certain extent. As a Christian, we have given our life to the Lord, then if the Lord really wants you to marry somebody, then He WILL make it happen. Example of Jim with Pat, they came to an understanding that they can just pray, and have faith and trust in Him, rather than try to figure it out on your own. Once priorities are in the right place, things tend to go into the right place without all the anxieties If we trust in the Lord, and believe me, the Lord wants you to trust Him, then the Lord will make it happen!

Q: At what age is a Christian ready to get married?
A: Nothing set in stone, still up to the Lord… Jim himself got married at 31; Jim saw Pat at least 5 times a week; so Jim really got a chance to see Pat functioning in all kinds of circumstances. Jim noticed various sisters, but not consciously maintaining a checklist; it's a background process. Once Jim was serious with Pat, Jim did become conscious at a "checklist", checking for qualities, compatibility. Pat was praying too; she was interested in Jim. Two years after they decided to marry.

Q: How should I approach a sister/brother if I'm interested?
A: Haste makes waste… Don't rush into things!

Q: How to block?
A: Flee youthful lust, pursue with the brothers. Keep your relationship always above board, avoid personal kinds of relationship, personal kinds of settings, that would develop normally above the open setting. Even chatting (i.e., AIM) and talking on the phone are settings that promote personal relationship. "Keep things above board": Chat asking how things are going is fine, but more involved conversations is discouraged; avoid it!

Q: What led you to decide to give your life to the Lord?
A: Lots of experience in the Lord. Everyone has their own kind of experience to cause the person to pursue Lord fulltime. The Lord will give you the sign, to let you know when you should become more intimate, more lifetime pursuing him.

Q: How has the Lord taken care of you and your family while serving the Lord fulltime?
A: It's very romantic, ups and downs. Today it's not so much physical, like Paul getting beat up, but more Psychological. The Lord supplies you; Paul got it : whether abase or abound.

Q: What do you suggest to young people contemplating dropping a job and going fulltime?
A: You want to have a lot of fellowship. Might seem like a noble cause, but definitely will be suffering Involved. You are handing your life over to the Lord. "He takes you seriously". So, if this is the Lord's will, it probably won't go away, and sooner or later, you'll know if it's the right time Same thing like finding a husband and wife, eventually it'll come back.

Q: What advice regarding balancing church, life, and school?
A: Same principle, have to learn how to pray, and learn how to find the Lord. Trial and error, pray, fellowship, and sense how the Lord is moving

Even when you're serious about another person, and checking qualities, you ought to still keep things above board, so that if the compatibility didn't work out, your relationship with the other person in church would NOT be messed up.

"Being alone in pursuit situations are OK, but MUST BE IN PUBLIC."

[December 6, 2002] Jim Ruffin and other Serving ones discuss the topic of Relationships in the eyes of the Lord during a Friday Night Fellowship meeting and answers questions.

Jim Ruffin shares:

Ecclesiastes 3:1--"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heavens"

The world's view is that we need everything right now, but God view is that for everything there is a time. Each stage of our life has a certain phase and focus. Our (for a large number of us) primary focus right now is -- (Megan enthusiastically...) "school"

Even Jesus had to abide by a time. He didn't start preaching until He was 30, when he was actually already ready by the age of 12 (recall separation from family in temple). Why? (1) God's law says that only people of age >= 30 can be priests. (2) Jesus had to submit to God's timing and to His parents.

Roman 12:2--"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect"

When Jim was young, in the '50-'60s, there were at least 10 major movements/revolutions that were constantly going on in which he could have been caught. How did Jim avoid getting caught in those? He was constantly in the Word, and exercising his spirit. He goes to a minister's bookstore to, in retrospect, sanctify himself [by getting into the Word].

The two things we need to do to renew our minds:

1) We need to be in Spirit
2) We need to exercise our spirit through the Word.

Bad points of dating (see the more complete list from Jim himself below):

1) Dating promotes unnecessary intimacy--intimacy that is of the flesh, and
leads one step-by-step to damage
2) Dating stirs up competition and jealousy

- competition: "I have a date now, and you don't!"
- Jealousy: (two brothers in church, one of whom likes a sister that the other also likes) "Hey, you want to pray-read together?" "No, I don't feel in spirit!!" [example illustrates that dating can damage saint fellowship]

3) Dating is an ego-trip (George?)--you date because the other person tells you she likes you, and you feel really good about it, so you go out with her.
4) Dating is a training ground for divorce (George)--you get into the mentality of short-term relationships, with no long-term commitment. So in marriage, you keep that mentality and think that I'm just with you until I find someone better (or until it doesn't work out), and then I'll move on to someone else.

It's easy to fall into relationship, for something innocent to mushroom into something one can't handle. With technology today, falling into this trap is much easier. Emailing [and CHATTING TOO!] is convenient, but easily kept secretive, fosters conditions for being in the flesh, and can bring one into a relationship undesirably.

There are a few things I [Jim] would like to add as follows:

1. I also used Ecclesiastes 3:17 "I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for He has assigned a time for every purpose and for every work."

2. The translation on Romans 12:2 is from Dr. Spiros Zodhiates, a Greek himself, saying, "Stop being molded by the external and fleeting fashions of this age, but undergo a deep inner change by the qualitative (higher perception) renewing of your mind."

3. The bookstore on campus was not run by my uncle, but from a minister who had a burden for students on campus. So he rented a storefront and made it a coffee and pastry place for Christians to hang out, talk, discuss issues, pray, get into the Word, and eventually help us preach the gospel on campus. I became president of "Campus Bible Fellowship" through his nurture and care.

4. The major pitfalls of dating were as follows:

a. It undermines commitment, thus teaching us how to have brief relationships and move on to the next person.
b. It glorifies romance, causing us to desire the sensation and passion that goes along with this, but does not foster true love as it does falling in love.
c. It usually becomes a hindrance in following Christ and the church whole-heartedly because we get distracted and our loving the Lord suffers, our serving life suffers, and our caring for others suffers.
d. It produces jealousy and rivalry between the saints, especially if one or more brothers or sisters is interested in the same person. Sometimes it becomes an ego feeder because you consider yourself being more attractive than others or at least having a better rap than others.
e. Lastly, it fosters intimacy, which can lead down a dangerous road before one is really prepared for it. Sneaking around, writing secret emails, and being afraid to open up to others is all a sign that this is probably not so healthy. Proverbs 15:22 states, "Where there is no counsel, plans are frustrated; But in the multitude of counselors they are established. Thus, we need the Body to protect us and through the fellowship of the brothers and sisters we learn to be at rest and allow the Lord in His sovereignty to guide us to the right person at the right time.

5. The ten items the Lord kept me from being damaged by in the 60's were:

a. protesting against the Vietnam War in a rebellious way
b. protesting against any established government as being defunct and outdated
c. dropping out and becoming a hippie and adopting a free lifestyle
d. being part of the Jesus movement which fostered a free style of following Jesus, rather than being limited by any saints or the church which were corrupted anyway
e. becoming a Hari Krishna since they appeared to be above earthly restraints
f. becoming part of the feminist movement to help oppressed women
g. becoming part of the environmental movement to help the oppressed environment
h. becoming part of the sexual revolution since we had been suppressed far too long
i. becoming part of the black power movement since minorities were long
over due for true freedom according to the constitution
j. experimenting with drugs as a way to expand my thoughts and lose my inhibitions

George shares:

* Fighting analogy--would be great if someone had told him the proper way to fight, similarly for relationship

* George share story about his courtship of Vicki, and kept himself for Vicki for that period of two years. Their love grows stronger each days...as they pray-read.

He also brought up the point that partially based on their love for the Lord, service in the church, and past experience, they were suitable for each other (the more important aspect is that the Lord brought them together). George points out that a good match involves some common interest, similar degree of love for the Lord, service in church.

Hebrews 12:1--"Therefore let us also, having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, put away every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and run with endurance the race which is set before us," 2--"Looking away unto Jesus..."

Somewhat related to the above verse, a God-intended relationship strengthens you in fellowship with the saints, in spirit, in service for the church, NOT the other way around. It should not put you at odds with your family and fellow saints.

* George's illustration--counter example of "keeping oneself for the other person"
* It is really something to be able to say to your spouse on the night of your marriage that, "I have loved you even before I met you because I know the Lord has reserved you for me, and I have been keeping myself for you."

Any relationship, good or bad, is a compromise. Confer 1 Corinthian 7:33-35.

Jim: Since we have to spend time with our spouse, it will take time away from service to the Lord, at least initially (young couples) until they get their priority straight.

* George said that someone once said: "Dating is a training for divorce."

Vicki shares:

Essentially, the Body is a rich source for us to tap into.

Carl's question:

How do you rebuild yourself after you have been damaged?

George: Throw yourself into the service of the Lord, and the Lord, through His body and church and working, will restore you over time.

Felix shares:

1 Corinthian 7:33-35--"But he who has married cares for the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and is distracted. Both the unmarried woman and the virgin care for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both inbody and in spirit; but she who has married cares for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. But this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a noose upon you but that you may be comely and may wait on the Lord without distraction."

Owen's questions:

Q1) Regarding George's illustration of the brother who couldn't respond to his wife on marriage night about whether he kept himself for her, would it not be a bad idea for two people in a relationship to discuss this beforehand, so both knows?

George: The illustration was not meant for deeper analysis, but yes, it's generally a good idea for two people in a relationship to talk about any subject.

Sharing: Owen feels touched by the fact that he seemed to have come full circle. When he was younger in Taiwan, the traditional Chinese value we were taught was that males and females should not have contact with each other, not be in the same room, etc, until marriage. He remembers not liking that concept; he wanted to be able to explore.

Well, in the U.S., where the value on relationship is much looser, he got a chance to explore [although he didn't get a start until after college], and pushed to some point that he didn't like. Now the Lord has brought him back to His values, His teachings, that Owen shouldn't have relationship until the time is right. And he willingly accepts that now.

Vicki responds: What Owen had before was cultural, but what we have here (Christ and the Body) is much different, and higher than that. We have the Lord who has reserved ONE among millions of people for us, and the Body for each of us to lean on.

Owen: He didn't mean to imply that culture was equal to Christ, and agrees completely with what Vicki said. His main point was the transformation of that value about relationship come full-circle. Owen sees how blessed he is to have the Body, and considers the Pittsburgh saints his surrogate (dry) family.

Q2) George says his experience might have differed if someone told him about relationship beforehand. However, sometimes, even when a person tells you his experience, you might not listen. My question is, if I'm to lead young ones, or my own children, how do I prevent that?

George: The environment is important, but so is the task of the parent to tell the children our (God's) side of the story. Think of the world as providing one viewpoint. We need to constantly feed our children God's viewpoint. The choice will ultimately be on the children, but at least parents have done their part. The Body is also part of the answer.

George: When high schoolers ask George what happens if s/he likes someone, George responds, If you think you like someone, keep([really keep? wouldn't that cause it to grow in your heart]) that person in your heart, but take no actions. Maintain focus on the main purpose, i.e., school. When you finish school, and realize that that person still has a place in your heart, perhaps that's a sign from the Lord, and you might be able to pursue it. [Notetaker interpretation: Keep your future spouse in your heart, rather than that particular person? You don't know if that someone is going to be your spouse. Keeping someone in your heart could actually cause that person to grow in your heart prematurely, and run counter to the Lord's plan?]

"In experiencing the Lord, I told Him that I do not want to struggle with Him anymore, and I want Him to be my living. Recently I asked the Lord to be my forbearance, especially when I have to participate in weekly research group meetings and talk to professors and other students. Throughout the week, I ask Him to be my peace, especially when I cannot solve frustrating homework problems in applied stochastic processes." - Student

"I think the Lord is constantly watching over me ever since I came to Pittsburgh. The Lord really preserved me in His hands. It is unbelievable.

Sometimes, I did not even know how I went through all the insurmountable and impossible tasks in school. The Lord simply told me to calm down (even though I was still anxious) and to do as much as I can. Although I oftentimes struggled on my own, I was pressed by my environment to such a point that I turned to Him by calling on His name. The Lord wanted me to call on His name and surrender to Him. He wanted to take care of my problems. So I let Him in. I told Him that my mind was going to explode and I could not take in any more studying.

"I have recently experienced the Lord while studying for my two midterms. During those times, I asked the Lord to study with me and even to gain my heart." - Student

"Well, recently I reached an impasse with my job situation, and I asked the Lord to watch over my situation. Soon enough, after all my anxiety had mounted, and I just let go, an opportunity came to me that I never would have expect. I was given an opportunity to work in another department that seemed very promising. For that I am thankful of the Lord." - a young working adult

"During this last week...I've been dealing with a difficult sitation that some of you know about already(I talked about it to a few people and I also shared briefly about it on Sunday). I just had so many questions for the Lord and felted so weighed down by the situation. It so amazing that we just happend to be going over Phillipians chapter 4 just when I needed to be reading it. To cont story...I was sitting in my car by myself one day after getting back from school...just thinking about my situation and what I need to do...and I just posed a question to the Lord about my situation...and I recieved an answer from him immediately.

"'Be found in Him.' ...this is a phrase we hear relatively often so that it could be doctrine if we are not paying attention.

it comes from this verse: Phil 3:9 And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, When others meet us, where do they find us--in Christ or in some good thing that is not Christ Himself?

"Believing and trusting. I suppose they could relate to any topic, but I'm sure you refer to our relationship with Christ our Savior. I consider believing to be the more general. Believing is our connection with the living God. Without believing, God is only distant or historical. But when we believe into the Son, He is as near as our heart. Just as our breathing brings in fresh air, our hearing brings in music, and our nose smells the roses.... believing brings into our heart the things of God. As one brother said, "we are the believing believers"

"According to John 1:12 "Believing equals Receiving." Whereas "Trusting" implies "Relying" on someone or some thing. For example, there was a great high wire act in which a person rode a bicycle with another person on the front as well as the back across a large arena. The announcer asked the people below, how many people believed in the ability of this person to do this again. Everyone in the audience responded positively.

"You can believe in something that is not trustworthy. You can trust something that is unbelievable."

"With regards to being satisfied, Philippians 4:11 helps to set my heart straight: "Not that I speak according to lack, for I have learned, in whatever circumstances I am, to be content." When I'm lacking, I think "Oh Lord, if I only have that, I'd be so happy!" Guess what happens when the Lord does give me that thing? Yep, you guessed it, I no longer feel happy, because I see the bigger thing I can get beyond that Why? because I have not been content. It's soooo hard to be content, for the human heart seems by nature ambitious.

"How do we know when the timing is right...for anything? The acorn can never imagine the oak tree it will become, yet it never questions God's plans for it. Can we, to whom God has given an intelligence and a will, willingly leave the planning to Him? Let us enjoy this poem called "Sometime" by Mary Riley Smith, which expresses the perspective of heaven we will one day possess." - student